College Parent Central Podcast
You don’t stop parenting the day you drop your student off to college on Move-in Day. Your role simply changes. (Actually, it’s not simple at all, but it changes.) You’re a parent for life. Join Lynn Abrahams and Vicki Nelson, higher education professionals and former college parents, as they explore the topics that can help you be a more effective and supportive parent to your college bound student. Whether you already have a child in college, college is still a year or more away, or your student is about to step out, start now to gather the information that empowers you to be an effective college success coach to your student.
College Parent Central Podcast
#127 – Encore Episode – Navigating College Financial Decisions: An Interview with New York Times Bestselling Author Ron Lieber
If you are in the midst of the college search and admission process, financing this college education is likely top of mind. Merit aid is an important part of many financial packages and there’s no one better to talk to about the topic than Ron Lieber, financial columnist for the New York Times. It’s so important that we decided to share this episode again. Don’t miss the opportunity to hear Ron talk about his Merit Aid course, a great way to get a head start on understanding how it all works.
Vicki and Lynn spent this episode in conversation with Ron Lieber author of The Price You Pay for College: An Entirely New Road Map for the Biggest Financial Decision Your Family Will Ever Make. Ron helped us unpack how complicated the financial aid system is and how crucial it is to understand how it works. The Price You Pay for College examines how our feelings and our ideas about success affect the choices we make about what we are willing to pay for college. Ron also shared information about his new course for families that helps them understand and navigate college Merit Aid.
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Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast. Whether your child is just beginning the college admission process or is already in college, this podcast is for you. You'll find food for thought and information about college and about navigating that delicate balance of guidance, involvement and knowing when to get out of the way. Join your hosts Vicki Nelson is Lynn Abrahams and I am a learning disability specialist.
Speaker 2:I work in a small liberal arts college. Locations are that I have two sons who have been to college and through and around. So I have both of those perspectives and I'm here today with my good friend and colleague, Vicki Nelson.
Speaker 3:Yes, my name is Vicki Nelson and I also come from two perspectives. I have three daughters who have gone to college and we have survived that and I am the professor of communication at a small liberal arts college and I'm also an academic advisor. So I see and work with students every day and bring the both of those perspectives to the things that we want to talk about. And as much, lynn, as I enjoy sitting here and talking with you, we're very excited because we are not alone today and we have a guest joining us and you are absolutely going to want to hear what he has to say to you. We are joined today by Ron Lieber, and Ron is the your Money columnist for the New York Times, where his work has received the Gerald Loeb Award, which is business journalism's highest honor, three times.
Speaker 3:Before coming to the New York Times, ron wrote a personal finance column for the Wall Street Journal. Ron is also the author of three the magic number seems to be three. Three New York Times bestsellers, including Taking Time Off, co-authored with Colin Hall, the Opposite of Spoiled, raising Kids who Are Grounded, generous and Smart About Money, and his most recent book the Price you Pay for College, an entirely new roadmap for the biggest financial decision your family will ever make, which, in addition to being a New York Times bestseller, was also named one of the best books of 2021 by NPR. Ron lives in Brooklyn with his wife, jodi Cantor, who is also a New York Times reporter, and his two daughters Cantor, who is also a New York Times reporter, and his two daughters, one of whom is entering the college admissions process. He often speaks to audiences about what to pay for college and how the system got so complicated, which is exactly what we want to talk to him about today. So, ron Lieber, thank you so much for joining us on the College Parent Central podcast.
Speaker 4:It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:So we would like to start asking you just a little bit about your own story and what brought you to writing this book about college students.
Speaker 4:Sure, I mean, I have a personal interest in this and a professional one. The personal starts for me back in middle school when my parents' marriage busted up and then my dad lost his job and didn't earn much income to speak of for a couple of years. It took our family about a dozen years to get back to where we had been financially, and that period overlapped with high school and college. So we didn't have enough money for me to go to the colleges I wanted to attend. But with the assistance of our college counselor we found our way to.
Speaker 4:An independent counselor, interestingly enough, was an assistant dean of admission sorry, an assistant dean of financial aid at Northwestern University, and he had this side hustle going on where he was helping local families navigate the financial aid system, and he basically told us exactly what to do and I got into Amherst College early decision. I got a great financial aid package and I was sort of off and running with just $9,000 in student loans. The moral of that story for me was that there is always a grown-up somewhere out there who knows the answers to the most complicated questions, and it's just a matter of finding the grown-up. And that lesson stuck with me, and so it's probably not that surprising that I grew up to be not just a journalist and not just a personal finance journalist, and not just a personal finance journalist who's interested in college, but somebody who's beat is beating the system, and oh boy is college pricing and discounting a capital S system.
Speaker 4:And beating, it is just exactly what just about every parent would like to do, or just to understand it in the first place. One of the reasons I wrote the book was that my inbox fills up every October and November and then again, like clockwork, in March and April with parents who are otherwise very sophisticated and well-educated themselves whose first or only kid is going through the process, and they wake up and realize that they've missed the memo, that the list price is not the real price, and that's not just true for people who have financial need, it's true for people in the 1%. In fact, it may be most true for people in the 1%, because all sorts of discounts are being thrown at very wealthy families by schools who know that those families don't have the willingness to pay less price.
Speaker 2:Now I wanted to ask you, in all the research that you did in preparation for this book, what was the thing that surprised you most?
Speaker 4:I think the thing that surprised me most was the fact that so many families stop in an extremely haphazard way for colleges.
Speaker 4:In the first place and I'm not here to cast blame right the system is complicated.
Speaker 4:The high school-based counselors are overwhelmed.
Speaker 4:There's a lot of pressure on those counselors to not start the process until kids are in their junior year, which I think is a mistake, but I don't blame the counselors right. So there's not a lot of clarity in the marketplace and even to take another giant step back, families don't understand that it's a marketplace and all they hear about is how rejective these schools are, when in fact there's all sorts of places that would love to throw giant Merida discounts at their kids to get them to come. So you know as much as I was in the research in an attempt to explain families families exactly how the pricing system and financial aid and merit aid works. The basic process of figuring out what college is for and therefore how to shop for one intelligently was kind of lost on all these families, and it was because I didn't feel like there were a lot of people out there in the advice business helping frame the shopping experience in the right way. So that was the first thing I was trying to do with the book in the early chapters.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I.
Speaker 2:I just have to ask when do you think a parent should start?
Speaker 4:I think you need to have the money conversation with your kid in between the end of eighth grade and the beginning of ninth grade, because one component of the merit aid system is that your grades and your scores do actually matter.
Speaker 4:And if yours is a family that is either unable or unwilling to pay full price at some or all schools, I feel like it's only fair that your kid know the rules of the game before they start high school, because otherwise what's the alternative?
Speaker 4:It's like you have that conversation in junior or God forbid senior year and then you end up with a very angry kid who says to you, quite rightly why didn't you tell me what you were willing or able to pay or how much responsibility would be on me to try to get some of these merit aid scholarships before I started high school, instead of at the end? Right, that's not fair. I've got all sorts of adolescent psychologists in my ear saying how in good conscience can you be running around telling parents to start this conversation about grades and scores at the end of eighth grade and I say, look, I don't like this system and, by the way, the people who run the system don't like it either. But until it changes. It's only fair that teenagers know how things work before they start high school, as opposed to at the end, when it's too late for them to do anything about it.
Speaker 2:Makes good sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I understand that balance, help them understand early. But I guess as part of that talk is it to open up the options to all of those hundreds of schools that are out there that aren't the top 20 on everybody's list. So that, so that it you balance understanding about the finances but not increasing the pressure to get into the best, best, best, top tier schools. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 4:I mean.
Speaker 4:One component of that conversation is that there are all sorts of schools and you might point to some nearby or you know others that your family has happened across for whatever reason, maybe because one of the parents went to them or an older cousin goes.
Speaker 4:There are all sorts of colleges that are happy to throw discounts at B-plus or B students, much more so in certain instances than the A students, and in that way you're not putting pressure on them. More students a particular college rejects, the less likely they are to have to offer discounts to people to get them to come, and that's just how markets work, right. If you're desirable and there's scarcity, you don't really have to discount unless you want to, and most of these schools don't want to discount unless it's for lower income families, and that's as it should be Right. But then there are schools in the marketplace and really it's every school other than the 50 or so most rejected that have to offer these merit aid discounts that are not based on need, because there is a scarcity in the number of people who have both the ability and the willingness to pay a $90,000 list price at the most expensive private colleges or a $35,000 list price at the most expensive public flagship schools.
Speaker 3:So, backing up just a little bit, you talked about how haphazard this search process is, and I'm probably president of that club bouncing around. That, I think, is in your book and one of the reasons that that Lynn and I both like it so much is you. You talk a little bit about how we can think about those things and and how our ideas about success and and our and and our feelings are really going to affect the choices that we make about finances. I, you know, I think so much of so many of us, think of finances as being just a purely kind of numbers, intellectual, heady thing and we don't think about that connection to our feelings. So can you talk a little bit about that idea of how feelings influence these financial decisions about college?
Speaker 4:Sure. Well, one of the great untold secrets of personal finance is that it's much more about emotion than it is about math. Right, and as the field of behavioral economics has become more prominent, more and more people are figuring this out. But behavioral economics has as much or more to do with personal finance and is influential on personal finance, or more influential than it is in the everyday marketplace of how you get somebody to buy something when they walk in a store, something when they walk in a store. And so part of what I'm trying to encourage people to do is get way, way, way more in touch with their feelings about paying for college for their kids than they are already, and this isn't easy to do. I mean, I've written a seven-page single-spaced guide for financial advisors on how to walk clients through these conversations when their kid or kids is at the youngest possible age. But, to boil it down, there are three really unhelpful emotions that tend to come to the four in this instance. I mean the first one is fear, right? Fear that your kid is going to go tumbling down the social class ladder if you don't provide some kind of you know lore underneath them, and often people persuade themselves that the way to do that is with the college that rejects the highest percentage of students that your kid gets into, come what may, no matter the price. So we start with fear. Then guilt Guilt that you do not earn enough and therefore you should borrow. Guilt that you have not saved enough and therefore you should borrow. Guilt that you're not doing as well economically as your parents did, and therefore you should borrow more or raise your retirement accounts, it for your kid or kids, even though the world and the marketplace has changed pretty dramatically, and therefore you borrow or therefore you raid your retirement accounts or yank money from your home equity, right. So we can put ourselves on all sorts of guilt trips, and I'm trying to get people to examine those itineraries and try to scale that back as best as they can. So fear guilt.
Speaker 4:And the last one is snobbery, right, and it may be your own snobbery. Private is better than public. Or you want some fancy window sticker for the rear of your car so that everybody in the neighborhood can see where your kid goes to college, and the fancier the school the better. Or it may not be your own snobbery or elitism. It's other people's that you're worried about. You're worried about the marketplace for 22-year-olds, whether it's employers that are themselves elitist and only recruited certain schools or graduate schools or fellowships that are more likely to go shopping for 22-year-olds at the more rejective schools.
Speaker 4:And so if your kid gets into Penn instead of Penn State and you can only afford Penn State, well hell, we're going to borrow another $200,000 from the federal plus loan program because of all these snobs out there that may turn their nose up at Penn State, of all these snobs out there that may turn their nose up at Penn State. So these are all the things that can get in the way, and I'm just trying to get parents to get their heads on straight, right To have the tough conversations with one another if it's a two-parent household and if you're flying solo to find a trustworthy friend or relative who's most likely to ask you difficult, inconvenient questions about your intentions around spending.
Speaker 3:Yeah, boy, those difficult, inconvenient questions, I mean those three emotions that you talk about are so powerful. Yeah, it's a tough process but, boy, it can get you down to really thinking about value and what matters and what you're willing to pay for, which is your message, you know, for those people who can't pay the whole thing. There is this mysterious thing that I know you have focused on and I really want to give you an opportunity to talk about. That is merit aid and discounting and what that is. Because you know financial aid and we all fill out the FAFSA and then you get the expected family income and you know you may get the federal aid, but then there is this mysterious thing called merit aid. So can you start us with the basics, with that, a little bit of what it is and how it works and who gets it? Yeah, Sure.
Speaker 4:So for people who are roughly my age, who went to school 30 or so years ago, we grew up in a system where your financial aid was based on your need right, how much your family earned, what sort of assets it had. The schools and the government kind of size that up and you'd get or not get scholarships accordingly. But you know, roundabout 20 or 25 years ago, some schools with high prices with high prices but we're sort of losing the battle for 18-year-olds in the marketplace started to realize that they were going to continue to be in a kind of downward spiral where the quality of the teenagers who were coming was going to continue to decline unless they did something about it. And again, there's a couple thousand places to go to college in America. It's a marketplace. Inevitably they're going to be winners and losers, and the losers that were self-aware thought all right, well, one thing we could try is to go out in the marketplace and buy teenagers. So they bought a bunch of names from the college board of people who got SAT scores or PSAT scores or ACT scores that were higher than average for their current undergraduate population and they wrote them letters and said hey, we would really like you to apply here. We have identified you as a special scholarship-worthy person. So if you apply, we'll waive the application fee and if you get in we'll give you $3,000 off. And this is going to be a merit scholarship that's only reserved for our best students, right? So everybody wants to get patted on the head in that way. And it worked, right.
Speaker 4:And once it works for a year or two, your competitors up the road realize that they're starting to lose the bake-off on April 28th because that other school down the road is paying people to come in the form of coupons, right. But they're calling it a presidential scholarship, right? Fancy, merited. That makes everybody feel good about themselves and people want to be recognized for their accomplishments, not for the fact that their family doesn't have enough money, right? So as soon as the school up the road loses enough times, then they start to do the same thing and the dominoes fall until you're so far up the food chain that only Cornell and Stanford and Pomona College and the University of Michigan for out-of-state students doesn't have to do it anymore, because there are still way more people who are willing to pay the full price than there are slots for those kids.
Speaker 4:So all of a sudden, 25 years later, all but maybe 50 schools in America have to play this game in some way, shape or form. University of Chicago plays the game. Duke University pays the game Really great. Small liberal arts colleges like Kenyon and Oberlin are forced to play the game. All of the women's colleges play the game, with the exception of Wellesley Smith College, which never thought it would have to play the game, often until too late, and so when I wrote the Price you Pay for College, the feedback I got most often was I want to know way more about how this works, because it could be worth $100,000 in discounts to my family or more. And so, after hearing that a bunch of times, I went out and built an online course that's just about Meridate, so people can find it at meridatecoursecom and I spent a couple hours just doing video tutorials with a bunch of takeaways and downloads and links to resources that'll help people get a grip on it, because I was just aghast that so few people understood how things actually work today.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm really curious about you know, what can parents do? Is there something they can do to up their chances or up the amount of money, or is this kind of luck?
Speaker 4:is this kind of luck? No, it's not so much luck. Basically, there are two ways this can work right. Either your rising ninth grader can just make a commitment to performing in the classroom in the way that will make them most attractive to schools that have the biggest discounts, or, in the junior year of high school, the family can adjust the target college list to aim specifically at schools that offer the biggest discounts. And if you're a family that earns let's call it $300,000 a year, right, like cue the chorus of small violins, right, I mean, that's a fantastic household income.
Speaker 4:But most of those families are not going to qualify for much, if any, need-based aid, and yet they can't write a check for $90,000 each year to Northwestern, or at least most of them can't or won't or don't want to, right, and so you may have to cross the Northwesterns off the list. But you can add the Syracuses, or you can add schools like University of Chicago that will offer merit aid discounts to a pretty sizable number of kids in an attempt to buy them away from Cornell and Stanford. And so you got to go out and figure out what those schools are, which is what I'm trying to help people do, and you can take this to an extreme. I mean, in my book I wrote about a family where they identified what they felt were the 30 best most appropriate for their child schools in America that offered full rides, full tuition, scholarship or sometimes full tuition and board, and the kid applied to all 30. And she got two or three offers at the end of that process and she went to Tulane on a full ride. Wow.
Speaker 4:But it was a part-time job, figuring that out.
Speaker 2:I was just going to say it must be really hard to find all this information.
Speaker 4:It's really hard right online, whether it's the subreddit for college admissions or college confidential or a really great Facebook group called Paying for College 101.
Speaker 4:And people are very generous there.
Speaker 4:The challenge is that you never know exactly who you're dealing with, who's giving you advice, and often their experience is based on having you know, having done it with a couple of kids, and that's not nothing. They may know more than 99% of the population at that point if they've really geeked out on the process. But that doesn't mean that their advice is always right or always current or always up to date, and so you know. One of the advantages I have as a New York Times reporter and then having written this book is that I have literal license to call up the smartest people in America and more often than not they're willing to talk to me because I've got a decent reputation for getting it right and being fair. So I was trying to kind of put down all of my accumulated knowledge about the Merida process in one course in the hopes that it would be a starting. The sort of schools that might or might not be right for their kid test optional and don't have the SAT scores as much or the ACT scores to use as a measure.
Speaker 3:Or is it not about?
Speaker 4:that. Well, it's an interesting question, and one of the things that I always encourage people to do if they're seeking Meridade but their kid might not submit a test is ask whether not submitting a test is going to be a problem, because sometimes it is. And, by the way, the schools out there that are calling themselves test optional but make it mandatory to get merited are not actually test optional and they don't deserve to call themselves that. So it's sort of a trap trap and you have to ask about that. And you have to ask about it when your kid's a sophomore in high school, because the testing machinery, its gears start to grind junior year and you know, ideally your kid is done with the testing by the time application season starts, so they're not worrying about that anymore. So you got to figure all that out and to make it harder, the schools themselves are changing their minds as we speak about whether they want to stay test optional or go test blind, and so all this is a moving target.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is, I'm glad you're offering the course yeah.
Speaker 3:Would you when? Well, you'd recommend that parents do the course now, but when? In the scheme of things, if they're having this talk with their student early on about you know, we've got to think about this thing called money as in in as part of the college admission process. When is your course most helpful to parents?
Speaker 4:I think if you want to know what you're up against, it probably makes sense to take a look at it when your kid is starting high school. Um, you know you can come back to it anytime you want. Uh, you knowher course, and I'm going to try and add content to it as things change. I don't expect things to change all that much in the next couple of years.
Speaker 4:Merit aid stops becoming an enormous factor for many families is if all of the schools reprice themselves to the average amount that a family with no financial need actually pays. But the reason they won't do that is because everybody likes a discount and they anchor themselves to the list price as a sign of quality, right, and so it feels pretty good if your kid is going to a $74,000 school but all you're paying is you48,000 or whatever, and so the schools have a sort of psychological advantage to keep the system that way. Now they would prefer not to deal with this Meridate stuff at all. They would like it if everybody repriced all at once. But the problem is, if they all got together and decided to do that, it would be illegal. It would be price fixing and the mere suggestion of that possibility which has come up in forums that school administrators thought were private. When it's leaked out, the antitrust authorities in Washington have started investigations. So nobody even talks about industry-wide repricing anymore, because people don't want the antitrust police to come after that.
Speaker 3:I would think not. Yeah, so the prices are going to stay high and merit aid is going to be the, not the schools don't talk about discounts. I mean, it's interesting because we both work in a college and within the college, we're always talking about our discount rate. So so we think of it as a discount, but and I know you touched on this, but I you know I think it's an important point that that saying to parents we're going to give you a discount feels as though we're doing something for you because you, you, you need it, you can't afford to come, and as opposed to we're giving your child something because they're special and outstanding, and so we call it Right.
Speaker 4:I mean, one of the things I've been able to do as a reporter that parents can't do and so this doesn't come up in these online forums is that I'm able to go to these higher education conferences where administrators and the consultants who service them are fretting about this discount rate that's now well above 50% at private colleges, and the schools worry that. You know their discount rate is going up each year. But that's not the way the schools speak to families. The schools speak to families in terms of presidential scholarships when, in fact, what they're really doing is just offering a coupon and trying to use algorithms to predict the highest price that a family is willing to pay and offer that coupon at exactly that price so they can extract the maximum revenue from the families. And I'm not framing it that way because I think the colleges are evil. Again, this is a marketplace and we don't want these colleges to go away In America. We like choice, we like having thousands of schools to choose from. So this is just the way the schools need to do it, given the way that the system is. But the schools don't speak about it that way and the schools are certainly not saying to families who are shopping.
Speaker 4:Here's what our average discount rate is. Because if you think your kid is above average and, by the way, everybody's kid is above average, we know this right If your kid is above average you're going to ask for a bigger discount than average. And if everybody does that, not only does it get really annoying in the admissions office in March and April, but half the people are going to be disappointed, and then your yield falls and you don't get as many students as you'd hoped for. So it's not in the school's interest to make sure families are super educated consumers, because then people are just going to ask for more, and they're going to ask for more than average. So I always want my customers right. I want my readers in the New York Times, I want my readers of my books and I want the people who take my Merida course to be customers of below average profitability for any company or institution that they're dealing with. That's what I was put on the earth to do.
Speaker 3:It's a good mission. So tell us just, you know, to sort of wrap up here just a little bit more about this course it sounds. You know, the more you talk, the more complicated the whole system. You know we realize how complicated it is and that a course that's going to tell me about Merida is essential not just nice, but essential. So how do you take parents through that within the course?
Speaker 4:Sure, I try to start. You know the course starts with a sort of crash course, in plain English, on how we got here Right. So, like this is a marketplace. What does the marketplace look like, how is the marketplace involved, and why did some schools start offering these merit aid discounts and why did the vast majority of schools have to do the same thing? So here's how the system works. Here are all the pointed questions you need to ask yourself before you go shopping. Here are the right things to do when you go shopping. Here's how to figure out which schools offer merit aid and what the average amount is. Here's how to figure out your kid's chance of getting more than average, and then here's how to figure out your kid's chance of getting more than average. And then here's what to do when you've got a bunch of offers and you're hoping to extract a little more of a discount from a particular school.
Speaker 3:Okay, so step-by-step through, so early on then, as you begin the search process, it's obvious of what you need, so tell us again. You mentioned it in an offhand way. How do parents find this course?
Speaker 4:Sure, you can find the course at meridaidcoursecom. All one word.
Speaker 3:Okay, we will put that in the show notes and let people know that.
Speaker 2:So, before we end, I do want to ask you a question that we didn't tell you. We were going to ask you, and we ask all of our friends who come, and that's what other books could you recommend to parents who are looking for more information about this?
Speaker 4:So I really love Jeff Salingo's book yes, we do too. Who Gets In and why?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know, you caught me at a moment where I was just about to reorganize the books and I'm looking behind me. Right now there's one in particular that I wanted to mention, whose title I can't remember, and I know what it looks like, but I'm not seeing it.
Speaker 2:Well, if you just let us know, we will put it in the notes.
Speaker 4:I will. I am a big fan of Tim Fields and Shereme Herndon Brown. For families who are Black, the Black Families Guide to College Admissions is really excellent, and those guys give a great presentation in person as well. And my colleague Frank Brunies where you go is not who you'll be. Yes, if you want to get really angry about how admissions works behind the scenes, the Price of Admission by Dan Golden and, as ever, you know, for general parenting advice, how to Raise an Adult by Julie Lithcott Hames.
Speaker 2:That is one of our very favorites. I want to say yeah Is excellent.
Speaker 4:Okay, and I am so annoyed that I can't put my hands on this other one, but I'll find it. We can toss it in the show notes.
Speaker 3:Okay, we'll toss it in the show notes Sorry, we we sprung that on you, but but but when we talk to people in this world to know what they would recommend, it just broadens and broadens what. What's out there for parents? You know when, when, when I started the college Parent Central website in 2009, there really wasn't much. Parents weren't considered part of this process in the same way. So it's wonderful to have a whole set of information like this, like this. So we have the link to your website and then, if people would like to get in touch with you, is there any way that they can reach you? Or just go to the Merit Aid?
Speaker 4:course website. Yeah, if you go to ronlebercom, there's a contact button there.
Speaker 2:And I try to respond to everybody although I can't always do it really quickly, we really appreciate your time today.
Speaker 4:Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for your interest.
Speaker 3:This is really such an important topic and we have steered away from really talking much at all about financial aid because it is so complicated and so mysterious that we don't want to muck it up. We really need the experts like you. So thank you for your book and everyone should read it. We will put that in the show notes. And it's not I mean it's a financial book because it's got all of this information, but it doesn't feel like I'm reading a financial book, I think because of that emphasis that you put on. You know those themes and our fears and what the work we have to do and values and all of that. So you know, we just keep recommending that book to parents.
Speaker 4:Thank you so much. I mean I tried hard to get the two exactly right and for it not to feel dry and bloodless. So I appreciate that.
Speaker 3:Definitely not bloodless. So thank you so much and we will put all this information in the show notes and perhaps we will be calling you back to come and talk some more sometime.
Speaker 4:Thank, you, thank you.